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Eve Sedgewick, "How to Bring Your Kids Up Gay"
Stephanie K. Dalquist
-Why did the DSM-III definition of Gender Identity Disorder of Childhood
have much broader "symptoms" for boys than for girls?
Char DeCroos
-Sedgwick describes Friedman's ego consolidation of boys as a process
of idealization and imitation. However, he doens't discuss whether if
a similar process occurs for girls. Does a similar process occur?
Joseph Kaye
-Are there other sexual norms that are assumed in childbearing? What would
your reaction be to a paper entitled "How to Bring Your Kids Up Monogamous?",
or "How To Bring Your Kids Up Submissive"? Many in the polygamous and
domination-submission alternative-sexuality subcultures feel that their
sexual procivities are as deep-rooted and ordained as those with an attraction
to the same sex. Should we apply the same rules, or are these cases different?
Walter Dan Stiehl
-How can Green, as a psycologist, encourage his patients to "marry and
keep their wives in the dark about their sexual activities"? It seems
that this need to force someone to not be homosexual ends up hurting not
only the person but a future wife and family.
Anindita Basu
-When do children first start to "learn" about homosexuality or encounter
it in popular kid culture?
-Why is there a discrepancy between how effeminate boys and masculine
girls are treated? Is it because for girls to act as boys is a step up
in the world whereas effeminate boys are lowering themselves?
David Spitz
-Sedgwick makes clear what she sees as still wrong with American psychiatry's
treatment of homosexuality, but what of the question implied by her title:
How DO you bring kids up gay? How would she advise the parents in La Vie
en Rose?
Max Bajracharya
-It seems like accepting or affirming the notion of homosexuality requires
the human mind to consciously evolve beyond its bodies instinctual behavior...so
both accepting one's own identity and treating it is the same separation
of human consciousness and natural instinct (to know what is "normal").
But where does the strength of those original natural instincts/tendencies
of heterosexuality lie primarily? Is it still something biological? or
is it contained purely in our culture?
Mike Ananny
-The author states that gay organizations have been slow to attack the
DSM's new definition of "Gender Identity Disorder" out of a fundamental
mis-association of femininity and masculinity with sexual orientation.
Could it also be out of simple political practicality? I.e. would it be
unacceptable if gay organizations started to take a more active stance
on childhood sexuality? Is the subject of child homosexuality still taboo
even for progressive gay organizations or are they simply concerned that
such a strong position on a sensitive issue might endanger their work
on other fronts?
Hilarie Claire Tomasiewicz
-Says Friedman, "Who is to dictate that parents may not try to raise their
children in a manner that maximizes the possibility of a heterosexual
outcome?" Who? How about the children, for starters? I think the phrase
"of a heterosexual outcome" is best replaced by something like" of the
child not making a lifelong habit of peeing on the floors of restaurants."
Or something elses that really might have a hugely significant impact
on the future of that child's social adjustment to the adult world.
Carlos Cantu
-I realize I could be exposing my ignorance but here goes...I can see
Sedgwick's concern with the high suicide rate amongst gay adolescents,
and I agree that Green's reasoning behind treating gay boys in order to
"reduce childhood conflict and social stigma" is somewhat problematic
but what does she mean by the need for a strong, explicit, "erotically
invested' affirmation of some people's felt desire of need that there
be gay people in the world"(238)? Really, there were some paragraphs that
blew me away...what's a "non-too-dialectical trope of progressive consolidation
of self?"...huh?
Jeannie R. Ben-Hain
-Why does our society fear homosexuality in males more than females? It
seems that the stronger diagnosis for boys in the DSM-III shows how much
more on guard people are to prevent boys from growing up gay. Effeminate
behavior is reacted to much more strongly than a girl who is a tomboy.
Why is this?
Alexandra Andersson
-Doesn't psychoanalysis leave any room for individuality without classifying
it as a pathology? Or rather, why is the deviations that are allowed for
so narrow?
Girim Sung
-I was really disturbed by Friedman's description of "the interactive
process that leads to ego-consolidation in a boy." "The others must agree
that the boy is and will remain similar to them. The boy must also view
both groups of males (peers and older men) appropriate for idealization."
Is Friedman suggesting what makes a child male is how well he conforms
to the male population? Conformity is a gender determinant?
Adrienne DeWolfe
-Sedgewick brings up many ways that the psychoanalyst should not treat
the effeminate boy; does she ever go on to suggest an approach that would
be healthy and helpful in the struggle with identity, depression, and
suicide these youths are dealing?
Jennifer Chung
-Okay, the author says 'western culture'.. Is this a completely 'universal'
response, or how is the issue of gender noncomformity in children treated
elsewhere or elsewhen?
Daniel Huecker
-Sedwick makes an important, if obvious, point about using therapy to
prevent or reverse a gay identity. Psychology, religion, and even medicine
have always been used to help/force the individual return to the established
societal norms of thought and behavior. Does Sedgwick believe that if
psychologists "accept" homosexuality, that society in general and parents
in particular will change their opinion to what the experts say?
Sara Cytron with Harriet Malinowitz, "Butch in a Tutu"
Joseph Kaye
-I think I'm most intrigued by her description of playing female by emulating
her sister Ellie. I think this idea of playing to one's gender role is
(perhaps hopefully, perhaps regretfully) practiced by everyone, at some
point. How does this tie in with earlier readings' formations of identity?
Stephanie K. Dalquist
-If psychotherapy has been "almost ubiquitious" in her life, why has she
just recently come to understand the dreams' importance? With her parents'
strict ideas of gender conformity, how did she and Roma get away with
being "passionate lovers" between 12 and 16? There's a lot more to acting
heterosexual/"not being caught" (literally and figuratively) than just
taking on a boyfriend...
Char DeCroos
-Cytron in her article dicusses how her concepts of attractiveness and
gender niche stemmed from her assorted interactions between her and her
parents (and later society). However in the opening of the article she
asserts "the right eyes were only my own." Does she gives evidence of
any time when her standards were truly her own? Is it possible to create
standards avoiding any influence of one's environment?
Walter Dan Stiehl
-The article seems to agree with Freud. The idea of penis envy of little
girls is manifested through her constant dreams in which the penis appears
either coming from her through her mouth or her genitals. Is this type
of dream common for women who are lesbians inside, but are forced to be
brought up as little heterosexual girls?
Anindita Basu
-What does the father's treatment of the little girl constitute? In working
with a lot of sexual abuse cases, I've noticed that many women come out
afterwards... is it fear of the abuser and associations with them? Is
it possible to switch sexuality because of violent associations? Or is
it that oftentimes this was one of their first sexual experiences and
so they were able to understand their sexual preference early on?
-Gender is oftentimes considered to be a social construction... so how
aregender and sexuality related?
-A few of the authors associated childhood play patterns with later sexuality.
What about kids who liked to play with both "boys'" and "girls'" toys?
It seemed okay for girls who played with both-- is it also okay for boys
who play with both? Are these play patterns true indicators of sexuality?
David Spitz
-There's not much to "question" in Cytron's essay, but how might we contrast
her experience to that of the boy in La Vie en Rose? How do social norms
make it easier or harder for boys who do not fit their gender stereotype
as oppossed to girls?
Max Bajracharya
-Cytron uses theater acting as a relief to her own (unknown?) identity...is
this because what she wants to be is oppressed/hard/impossible or because
she doesn't know what her identity is and acting tells her who to be?
Mike Ananny
-Could the author have developed male sexuality tendencies to avoid being
further involved in sexual contact of the kind she described with her
father? I.e. her desire to avoid further sexual contact with a man was
perhaps influenced by her father's early sexual advances? This is related
to the issue raised in the Lassell paper: is sexual orientation something
independent from sexual attitudes that could be influenced (at least partially)
by events that occurred during a "critical period" (if one even exists)
of sexuality development in children? This interpretation agrees with
the author's comment that the lack of attention from her mother made her
long for contact with females; i.e. perhaps this relationship influenced
her expression of a sexual orientation (but not necessarily her sexuality)?
On another point, could the author have been influenced by the power often
associated with being male and not necessarily the male sexual identity?
Hilarie Claire Tomasiewicz
-Says the author, "I thought God would punish me by making me grow a penis."
Is Freud's concept of "penis envy" relevant to lesbians?
Carlos Cantu
-I totally agree that gender is far too "variageted" than our vocabulary
allows, but is more jargon what those like her need? What about plain
old love, respect, and acceptance? Is that too unrealistic a request or
is it really necessary to convolute Cytron's situation with more psycho-babble,
ala Sedgwick? (As a side-note, I appreciated her sincerity and would really
like to know how she is doing).
Jeannie R. Ben-Hain
-Its interesting that in both essays (boys dont do that and butch in a
tutu) there was usually one parent who required certain things in order
for love to be doled out and one parent who was not capable of being affectionate.
(For Sara her father was affectionate, her mother not; For Michael it
was the opposite). In both cases, both children were striving to be loved
and accepted for their identities. How much _does_ parenting affect how
we grow up and how we shape our views of ourselves and of society?
Girim Sung
-After watching La Vie En Rose and then reading this story, I realized
consciously that we have such strict cultural classifications of what
a man does and what a woman does. In Butch in a Tutu, Cytron does not
think of herself as "feminine" because she did not want to wear a dress,
or go to the beauty parlor. In La Vie En Rose, Ludo thinks that doing
"feminine" things like putting on a dress or makeup makes him a girl
.-What's interesting to me is that, because both do not value the cultural
characteristics of their own spheres, they feel a need to try out the
other sphere-but they are both trapped between the two strictly defined
spheres because they can't fit the cultural definition of one and can't
fit the biological definition of the other. In other words, Cytron did
not like feminine things, but liked masculine things. So she thought that
because she enjoyed what the male sphere had to offer, she wanted to be
a man. So instead of saying I do not want to conform to the rules of the
female sphere, she was saying that she couldn't fit, so she must try to
be in the other. She must belong to a sphere. She defined herself as a
man because she had internalized the strict cultural definitions. But,
can't a woman still be a "woman" if she wears a pantsuit or cuts her hair
short-- if she enjoys power and freedom-if she is butch? Why must that
make her think that she should be a lesbian (before she realized that
she was sexually attracted to females)? In La Vie En Rose, as well, the
neighbors classifies Ludo as bent. . .couldn't Ludo just be a boy who
likes dresses and dolls? Why must we all stick to gender-appropriate behavior?
And if we don't, why must we then be homosexuals?
-I'm really curious to find out how the French react to homosexual individuals
because their definitions of what is male and female is even in the language
with la and le. So consciously and subconsciously everyday, the French
could be reinforcing sexist norms through speech. Are they more or less
homophobic than Americans?
Brandy Evans
-First, was everyone's copy missing pages 222 & 223? Mine was, so if my
question was answered in those pages forgive me. Although she only mentioned
it briefly, her tendencies toward OCD interested me. I don't know much
about the nature vs nurture causes of OCD, but I wonder if the condition
persisted as she became an adult or if they got better as she began to
understand herself and her sexuality better.
Raffi Krikorian
-At what point does tomboy-ness turn into a defining point for a woman's
sexuality? perhaps it is my naivete, but there are many women who are
"tomboys" throughout childhood and even adulthood, who are heterosexual.
Adrienne DeWolfe
-Cytron talks about submerging the feminine in herself in a desire to
express the masculine. What would Freud's take on this be? We all have
aspects of both masculine and feminine; must both hetero and homosexuals
then submerge either their masculine or feminine personality traits?
Jennifer Chung
- The subject of this and 'Boys...' both mention seeking solace in, or
at least being good at, acting. What happens to the children who can't
hide by doing that?
Daniel Huecker
-Does Cytron shows a greater awareness of the genderd codes that she selectively
embraces for both personal reasons as well as tactical subterfuge due
to the therapy? How biased is this information?
Michael Lassell, "Boys Don't Do That"
Joseph Kaye
-To what degree do you subconciously accept gender norms? Why are most
of the men in the room sitting clustered in a group?
Stephanie K. Dalquist
-Lassell's psychological explanation of his childhood is frought with
Freudian ideas. (ie "...I felt castrated by my mother and ridiculed by
a father who let her do it.") Is this a product of the time in which he
came to these realisations (ostensibly through therapy)? What interpretations
might be offered by non-psychoanalytic schools of thought?
Char DeCroos
-Is Lassels vindicative attack on nuclear families (the problem with nuclear
families is that they are emotional ecosystems that frequently lack sufficient
nutrients) more of just an attack on his immeadate nuclear family? He
never seems to provide evidence to the contrary that would defend his
strong assertion.
Walter Dan Stiehl
-This article seems to pose a question as to the nature/nurture role of
homosexuality. Had the author been raised among men, would he still have
been gay?
Anindita Basu
-Gender roles seem to have been very defined and segregated for straight
couples. Were they as strict for gay couples?
-On p. 249, Lassell says, "Add sexual minority to gifted, and the die
is cast for psychic disaster." What about adding being a woman to the
mix? Was it socially considered worse to be a gay man or a dyke or were
both equally bad?
-Lassell briefly mentions what it's like to be bi in one paragraph. The
readings focused fairly strongly on one side of the spectrum. What about
kids who are somewhere in the middle?
David Spitz
-Was Pinocchio gay? What are the implications of Lassell's "gay reading"
(page 248) of the story?
Max Bajracharya
-Is Lassell's argument for his identity entirely a nurture/environment
argument (authority figures, lack of brother, etc)? Did he really not
have a choice to decide his identity? Since he is experienced with both
homosexuality and heterosexuality, it seems like he is simply struggling
with his own identity, but blaming it on his environment, society, and
past.
Mike Ananny
-Lassell's anger at not being "told" he was gay by his parents after the
parent-teacher interview is interesting: he was looking for a label for
his behaviour, a way of making sense of his world and his feelings. Is,
then, it parents' job to help their children make sense of the world,
offering and supporting all possible explanations for their children's
behaviour or is it their job to provide default structures that reflect
their own values but remain open to a child's differences? More generally,
to what extent should parents help children develop versus discover their
personalities?
Hilarie Claire Tomasiewicz
-Lassell on the early 1950s: "There was no GI Joe for boys who liked dolls
to play with." Did the creation of GI Joe dolls have anything to do with
a societal concern that boys' maternal instincts should not go undeveloped?
I would be eager to know if Lassell's words were written in all sincerity
or if he was being sarcastic, referring to the fact that few if any baby-dolls
exist in toy stores specifically for boys.
Jeannie R. Ben-Hain
-Michael tried so hard to fit in with his peers and yet he always ends
up feeling isolated and alienated (even later in life). He is affected
greatly not only by what he believes his parents expect of him, but also
his schoolmates. If he had grown up in a society that accepted different
differences in gender roles would he have had to try less? To not become
a Real Boy, but just a boy?
Alexandra Andersson
-How do we begin to sort out the complicated mess of gender identeties?
The lables (straight, gay, transgender, cisexual, etc.) we attempt to
use for thisseem to be inadequate at best.
Girim Sung
-This story really made me rethink about the practicality of Rousseau's
abstract views about the need for the child to explore freely without
the corrupt society. Throughout this story, Lassell keeps talking about
the embarrassment he felt about his deviant behaviors, especially in public
situations (i.e.singing in school). If Lassell had been able to freely
explore as a child what it's like to wear a dress or dance and sing or
not play baseball without society's (and family's) narrow judgements and
corresponding reproach, would Lassell not be struggling (as much) with
his gender identity now? Could this period of gender exploration be important
for children to go through with full approval of the parents?
Brandy Evans
-Would he be better or worse equipped for rejection by gay society if
his homosexuality had been accepted at a younger age?
Raffi Krikorian
-Most of the writer's sexuality seems to be pronounced as a rebellion
against the norm. his younger years are spent exploring his sexuality,
he announces it in his mid-life, but in his l;ater life he seems lost
-- does it mean anything that he has nothing to rebel against?
Adrienne DeWolfe
-What a depressing article. Wouldn't much of his reflections and memories
serve as fodder for the nurture proponents in the nurture vs. nature debate?
Jennifer Chung
-Why was it that in the '70s, either homo- or heterosexuality were allowed,
but bisexuality was 'politically incorrect'?
Daniel Huecker
-Lassell's stories show a clear delineation between boys and girls clothes,
activities, language, feelings, desires, and domestic spaces. An important
question is does Lassell choose the dresses, kitchens, and dolls because
he associates with their feminine connotations, or because his interest
genuinely lies with the objects and activities without regard to their
gender codes?
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