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Robert Darnton, "Peasants Tell Tales"
Stephanie K. Dalquist
-Red Riding Hood wasn't necessarily "got...wrong" by Grimm... what were
the motivations (events in cultural history, as the author might put it)
for the changes across culture?
-Fromm's analysis is interesting; but how many casual readers would pick
up on the sexual overtones?
-Are there *any* tales that have lasted through a long (oral) history
without significant alteration?
Joseph Kaye
-In his rightous condemnation of the psychoanalysts' interpretation of
folktales, I think he neglects an important point in his quest for historical
accuracy and anthropological investigation of bygone cultures. The fact
remains that parents still tell their children folktales, in one form
or another, and children still listen. I think there's an important realization
that these stories are told because adults need to tell them and listened
to because children need to hear them. There is a reason and a moral and
a function that these stories fulfil. Children need to understand "don't
talk to strangers" and so they are read "Little Red Riding Hood". Children
need to be told "Don't be greedy" and "There's no such thing as a free
lunch" and "Everything is not as it appears on the surface", and so they're
read Hansel & Gretel.
Mike Ananny
-The author seems rightly critical of overly ambitious psychoanalysis
of children's literature based on inadequate sources. What aspects of
psychoanalysis make it vulnerable to these errors of analysis and is this
specific to the application of psychoanalysis as applied to children?
Max Bajracharya
-Adapting and changing fairy tales and stories told in the oral tradition
has always been relatively easy; but now that these stories have been
recorded to paper, the evolution of the stories has changed somewhat.
As media changes (the story is put on Broadway, then Disney adapts it
as a cartoon, etc) the stories evolve, and become the common popular version,
but this seems to be a much slower process. Is the same culture reflected
in stories as previously? or is it more of what society wants?
Girim Sung
-Darnton says that "to eat or not to eat, that was the question peasants
confronted in their folklore as well as in their daily lives," and that
"wishing usually takes the form of food in peasant tales." But now, in
an era of unprecedented economic prosperity, children's literature still
deals with the desire for food. For example, in Harry Potter, Harry, skinny
and malnourished living with Muggles, takes pleasure in eating sweets
and meats at the Hogwarts. Why does "eating" still appeal to today's readers
(who probably never experienced the malnutrition the peasants had to endure)?
Hilarie Tomasiewicz
-"No one thought of children as innocent creatures or of childhood itself
as a distinct phase of life, clearly distinguishable from adolescence,
youth, and adulthood." Were French peasants tales not intended for children
then? Were tales about tricksterism intended solely to provide adults
a way of coping with a harsh society instead of moralized stories to tell
one's children? It seems to me that adults could have probably found some
other more effective means of coping than by telling of these tales.
David Spitz
-Can Darnton's analysis apply equally to stories outside the folk tradition
(ie, the majority of mass culture)? Also, is it possible to write the
history of mentalities in the present, or is the subject too much of a
moving target -- and too obscured by point of view -- to exist in its
own time?
Christian Baekkelund
-What is this Aarne and Thompson "standard classification scheme"? What
are these "tale type" numbers everywhere?
-Also, could you give some background information/explain some more about
Perrault's Mother Goose? What's the history here?
Adrienne DeWolfe
-Do you think it important for children to be acquainted with these folk
tales? Most in my classroom are not. Also, what happened to our oral tradition
of storytelling? Especially among adults? Has it simply been pushed out
by other forms of media?
Anindita Basu
-For whom does the author claim fairy tales were written? He seems to
switch from stories to children to stories for adults. In that case, when
did fairy tales become told for children?
-Isn't the changing culture encoded in the changing stories which makes
a study of contemporary fairy tales valid instead of completely historically
inaccurate and irrelevant?
-Since fairy tales have changed along with culture, what does it mean
for children who are given the original Grimm's fairy tales with stories
like the Juniper Tree in which a little boy is beheaded by his stepmother
and few to his father in a stew? What is the current place for fairy tales,
especially contradictory versions of these stories?
Char DeCroos
-Is it true that common sense is fully a "social construction of reality,
which varies from culture to culture?" It seemst that a certain subset
of common sense would by definition must be applicable in all cultures?
For example, isn't it common sense everywhere not to put your hand in
the fire? Or how about minimizing the time spent with sharp-toothed, clawed
animals?
Jennifer Chung
-What role do stories play in promoting the societal collective subconscious,
and is it that tale-tellers are reinventing the themes, cliches, and essentially
in-jokes that everybody in a society knows (for instance, the chicken
joke), or is it that tale-tellers are drawing into stories the current
themes, etc. that are making their ways around culture, or is it both?
Raffi Krikorian
-I'm curious about the evolution of the peasent's stories. i'm not sure
i believe the fact that the stories all evolved separately, independantly,
and all have a common base. i believe that the stories are created, and
they make their ways into other communitiies where the stories are modified
to better suit that community. then the two versions of the stories may
meet up in a third community which extracts the best of both, makes modifications,
and then comes up with a third story. its just a shame that these stories
have made their way to disnesy who have simply mutilated the story.
-I also have a chicken and an egg problem. do these stories reflect the
peasent's way of life, or are the morals of the stories an agent of change
in the peasent' way of life?
Daniel Huecker
-The assertion that distinct oral versions of the tale can exist in parallel
with published versions is an important point that deserves more research.
-While Darnton explores many variations between tales that might indicate
a cultural tone to the story, he does not consider an important attribute
that also varies between the countries-- the language. As the tales are
oral, how much does the tone or character of the language (French, German,
English) influence telling?
J.K. Rowlings, Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone
Stephanie K. Dalquist
-One thing I find interesting about the Potter series is that they appeal
to both children and adults, even teenagers. What facets of this book
account for this universal appeal?
-This, like many other kids and adult literature uses the characters names
to signify they're on the "good"/"bad" side by the way they sound, the
words they're composed of, etc. (ie Snape, Draco Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle,
Neville Longbottom). When do kids become aware of such characterization
by naming? Is this timing/process related to the gender schema (Justine's
article about the French kids and occupations)? Potter continues in the
same tradition of tricksterism described in the previous reading (p.56).
Are there any specific stories that are reflected in its creation? How
might the story be different if created in Germany or France (as compared
to the UK)?
Joseph Kaye
-I think it's interesting to read this as following in the tradition of
English children's books, the Enid Blytons, the E. Nesbits. Unrelated
to that, can soemone explain to me how come, despite the first amendment,
America manages to have books banned from their libraries - including
attemps to have this one bnaned - on a semi-regular basis?
Mike Ananny
-This is a great book. I have more of a comment than a question: The reason
I think it may appeal to children is that it taps into both the desire
for children to lead a world separate from their parents (as Harry's world
becomes) and the feeling I think most children have of silently containing
their differences and then becoming releived and intrigued as they discover
that their differences are shared, i.e. that they have a community.
Max Bajracharya
-The story of Harry Potter seems like a very boy culture driven story
-- the entire school is based on the competition of a sport (supporting
the ego of each house), the girls are considered mostly annoying (although
found to be useful), and the world is full of trolls and dragons. What
is the difference in response from girls vs. boys reading this novel?
Is the market divided or equal among all children?
Girim Sung
-I really enjoyed this book! After reading this book, I really don't understand
the controversy this book caused. I read that some parents thought this
book encouraged "trenchcoat" mafias and so on, and tried to get this book
censored at some school libraries. Why were parents so scared of this
book? This book seemed so in the world of play and fantasy that I don't
think children would see it any other way. If anything, I would think
parents would encourage their children to read this book because it does
teach a lot of "good" values (loyalty, importance of studying, responsibility,
sacrificing for a friend, etc.).
Hilarie Tomasiewicz
-Do you think having an awareness of his family's financial situation
is a good thing for a young child to know? I know Rowling's background
and i think it is wonderful how she approaches the issue of money and
not having money in her books. I think children should know that money
is something not everyone has in equal amounts and her books most definitely
promote this awareness.
Jeannie R. Ben-Hain
-Why _does_ this series appeal to so many different age groups? I have
many friends here who have read the books and really like them, I have
young cousins who are hooked, and I even overheard a group of much older
professors discussing the series while eating lunch at Lobdell one day.
Im just intrigued to find aomething that is well-liked by so many different
age groups.
David Spitz
-How does Rowlings represent the role of games in children's culture (eg,
athletic sport, card collecting, etc)? What functions do games serve in
wizard world? Would _Harry Potter_ make for a good game? Or, does the
book already function as a game of sorts? More generally, despite what
Jackie Rose suggests about the impossibility of children's fiction, does
_Harry Potter_ when viewed in light of successful children's books from
previous generations point to any changes in children's culture and reading
habits? Or is _Harry Potter_ really just another adult book for children?
Christian Baekkelund
-The single thing that has lept out at me while ready Harry Potter more
than any other issue, so far, is that it doesn't seem that special. I
am confused as to why it has garnered the immense reaction it has. I expected
it to be some brilliant new children's story that appeals to children
in a way never done before, and thus has earned surprising financial and
critical as well as popular success. However, I have been amazed with
how surprisingly unoriginal the story actually is; the story "a young
boy who doesn't know his true magical powers is uncovered" has been told
a million different times in a million different variations. Just off
the top of my head, I can think of Neil Gaiman's _Books of Magic_, Clive
Barker's _The Thief of Always_, and _The Sorcerers Apprentice_, and a
dozen others from my own childhood. What makes Harry Potter so special?
Why did it succeed 10x more than any of its predecessors? -Also, one thing
I have been reminded of while reading a story meant for children, is that
frequently such stories deal with absolutes. Things are frequently black
and white, but never a middle gray. This seems especially true with respect
to "good and evil". Characters in Harry Potter seem frequently, good (Potter's
parents, Dumbledore, etc.) or evil (Voldemort, Duddley, etc.), but rarely
anything in between. What role do those in the somewhat gray area fill?
For example, Harry states when buying his wand that "he wasn't sure he
liked Mr. Ollivander too much". What roles do characters such as Mr. Ollivander
fill? And correspondingly, why are so many characters, actions, locations,
and similar so clearly black or white, good or evil?
Adrienne DeWolfe
-While I enjoyed this book very much and read it in my third grade classroom
last year, I'm still mystified as to why it became such an amazing hit.
It is reminiscent of Raul Dahl or C.S. Lewis' style but certainly not
of the same quality. So why all the hype? How was this book debuted and
marketed, etc.?
-Another point I just want to make is that every year of the last 6 I've
taught, I've had 1 or 2 parents who did not want their children listening
as I read aloud a fantasy story of this type. They were uncomfortable
with witches, goblins, and magic...
Anindita Basu
-Why does this book appeal to adults and children?
-Why is there only one main female character?
-How does a book like Harry Potter fit into the traditional fairy tale
genre and how does it redefine it?
- Why did Harry Potter take off in popularity when there are so many other
similarly styled books that came out earlier?
Char DeCroos
-Rowling's writes an amazing book. A strong element in the story is one
of Harry's legacy. Constantly Harry is reminded of the fact that he'll
almost for sure be great by the transitive property. I wonder how this
appeals to most readers? Do they imagine themselves with such a propensity
for being special? Or do they pick up upon how Harry has to work towards
his greatness by making mistakes, by making friends, and being a daring
person in general. I find this an incredibly interesting twist on the
nature v. nurture debate.
Jennifer Chung
-How much of the themes present in this form of the novel will be lost
when it gets translated into cinema? In general, when things are moviefied,
do kids lose out badly by missing the opportunity to, despite being given
a richly-drawn description, imagine things?
Raffi Krikorian
-The "peasents tell tales" piece mentions that no matter how a story evolves
or which group of people tell it, it always seems to have the same basic
qualities (the example of cinderella and receiving the slippers from a
fish, or losing it at a village tete). where does the "sorcerer's stone"
story come from, and what different iterations are there? the one thing
that kept on striking me was that the story was "the MIT story" -- we
have harry, a young smart child who never really fit in at home, but he
goes to this school far away where people accept him and he fits in.
Daniel Huecker
-Although coming out of the tradition of the folk tale, there are clearly
some differences as well. One that stands out to me is the length of the
story. Is the length of the book as opposed to the shorter duration of
the folk tales a product of the medium (text vs. oral), marketing, or
social function? Put another way: Why are Harry Potter books so long and
folk tales relatively short?
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