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Jacqueline S. Rose, "The Case for Peter Pan: the Impossibility
of Children's Fiction"
Walter Dan Stiehl
-As long as adults are authors, publishers, and control all aspects of
the process of creating a book, will it always be for both Children and
Adults? Has a book ever been written by a child that has been mass produced?
If so what was the result?
Joseph Kaye
-I don't get it. Sometimes I think this whole postmodern feminist paradigm
should stop looking for sex behind every tree (phallic reference intentional,
I assure you). By negating the very concept of 'childrens literature'
in the first page as an 'impossibility', she then proceeds to attack a
'classic of "children's fiction"' on the basis of a subversive, peverse
and dishonest hidden agenda. I can see a point in there somewhere, but
it's hidden under an blanket attack of negation. Ow.
Jeannie R. Ben-Hain
-Why is it called a children's classic if its supposed to appeal to both
children _and_ adults?
Max Bajracharya
-What exactly has made Peter Pan so appealing to children? It seems like
the return to (or the lack of leaving) the innocence and issues associated
with it have made it interesting to adults, but why do children identify
with the story so well (it was written as a adult story in the first place)?
Mike Ananny
-Is children's literature (just) another mechanism for adult influence
on the child? Is this another case of adults trying to influence the play
space of children by defining it for them through children's literature?
As much as toys are designed by adults (influencing the play space), children's
literature is written by adults (influencing the child's fantasy space).
In what ways are adult-designed toys for children different from adult-written
narratives for children?
David Spitz
-Is it necessary for Rose to say 'there is no child in children's fiction'
in order to prove her point as to the adult nature of children's literature?
Are children's associations with the literature intended for them necessarily
contrary to adults' connections to the same?
Girim Sung
-Why must we focus on the sexual aspects of Peter Pan? Don't children
see this as more of a children versus adult story rather than anything
else? This really reminded me of people analyzing Wizard of Oz like a
dyke coming out story.
Christian Baekkelund
-Rose states that "Children's fiction sets up a world in which the adult
comes first (author, maker, giver) and the child comes after (reader,
product, receiver)." But what about children's fiction written by children?
How does this change the relationship? (And I don't think there's any
literature written by children for adults, is there??).
Jennifer Chung
-Is there a predominance of third-person over first-person narratives
in children's literature? Is it harder, or easier, to draw a child into
a first-person work (harder because the child doesn't identify with the
thoughts s/he's reading; easier because the child *can* take the wealth
of the narrator's emotions and thoughts, to identify with)?
Raffi Krikorian
-There are no children behind children's literature is an interesting
statement. is the author saying that all of children's literature is created
simply to fill the fantasies of the author? are there no "appropriate"
forms of children's literature?
Char DeCroos
-Why are the populairty of Rose's impossible delights limited to children?
Don't similar impossibilities appeal to adults i.e. the flight of ET,
the epic struggle in star wars, the unlikelyhood of being chased around
by a knife wielding idiot in scream?
Anindita Basu
-How does children's lit differ according to the stance from which the
author writes? In many books, adults write for children against adults
(like Peter Pan or Le Petit Prince). How does this relate to the gap between
adults and children and does this silence children more or liberate them
a little?
-How does denying contradiction and difficulty in children's experience
imply that adults are trying to do the same in their experience? It would
seem that since children and adults are so often set in opposition that
the inverse would be true.
Adam Smith
-During thie reading, I began to think about how often children are encouraged
to play with toys because they are for them and not with other objects.
Most young children find a spoon and fork as entertaining as a little
toy car. However at a certain age, children begin to realized and prefer
what is theirs (toys) and what is not. How does this relate to children
literature. Are young children drawn in fairy tales over other types of
stories? Does this change at a certain age? if not, why so in toys?
Melanie Wong
-Can you explain the language revolution (education policy on synthetic
language) occurring at the time?
-As adults, we may never fully understand children. But should we not
be allowed to write for or about them? Doesn't this parallel the question,
"should a man be able to teach a women's studies class?"
-Is children's literature intact only if children enjoy it? Or if it contains
no adult or sexual undertones?
Marjorie Garber, "Fear of Flying, or is Peter
Pan a Woman?"
Walter Dan Stiehl
-Why, why, why was the author trying to make such claims? It seems entirely
unfair to James Bairre, who is no longer living, to claim that his children's
play was a vehicle for homosexuality and pedaphilia. The whole contrast
of the shadow to circumscision goes way too far.
Joseph Kaye
-Why, why, why was the author trying to make such claims? It seems entirely
unfair to James Bairre, who is no longer living, to claim that his children's
play was a vehicle for homosexuality and pedaphilia. The whole contrast
of the shadow to circumscision goes way too far.
Jeannie R. Ben-Hain
-Why is it called a children's classic if its supposed to appeal to both
children _and_ adults?
Max Bajracharya
-What exactly has made Peter Pan so appealing to children? It seems like
the return to (or the lack of leaving) the innocence and issues associated
with it have made it interesting to adults, but why do children identify
with the story so well (it was written as a adult story in the first place)?
Mike Ananny
-This is more of a comment on the author's line of argument than a question.
The author seemed to be confusing several character entities in the article:
I think his argument could be better teased apart if he considered the
author's idea of the character; the actor/actress projection of the character;
the audience's perception of the character; the audience's perception
of the actor/actress playing the character. Considering the goal and effect
of each one of these entities might help tease apart the author's theory
of _Peter Pan's_ relationship with children.
David Spitz
-A clarification question: How is nostalgia for a time that never existed
connected to a fear of death and the erotic? (p. 169) Hypothetical question:
What might be some of the _advantages_ to having a boy or man playing
Peter?
Girim Sung
-Why must we focus on the sexual aspects of Peter Pan? Don't children
see this as more of a children versus adult story rather than anything
else? This really reminded me of people analyzing Wizard of Oz like a
dyke coming out story.
Christian Baekkelund
-The one thing which struck me numerous times while reading this essay
is: isn't Garber reading too much into certain things and over-analyzing
various aspects to find things where they don't exist?
-More importantly, Garber seems contradictory at times. For example, Garber
describes Hook as having an "exaggerated 'phallicism' (with) two cigars,
a hook, and sausage curls". Then Garber later makes a claim on the next
page for Hook as "a figure for and of castration". How can such inconsistencies
be reconciled (or can't they)?
Jennifer Chung
-It's interesting to consider Peter Pan a representation of the boy who
never grows up. Is there an equivalent "girl who never grows up"? If not,
why not -- are women more childlike than men, and so they never grow up?
Also, what's the average Peter Pan actress's age?
Raffi Krikorian
-Maybe its just me, but i see why peter pan is a woman completely differently.
my first exposure to peter pan was through the Disney cartoon, and there
you saw an unmature boy. its seems perfectly logical to me to cast a woman
in that position when it needs to be performed on stage (or a prepubescent
child); a man in the role of peter pan seems completely wrong and wrould
throw off the story completely.
Char DeCroos
-Ack! It seems to me that Garber has beaten to death the story of Peter
Pan to extract assorted feminist and homosocial meanings. Do any parts
of the actual tale convey such things to children, or is Garber merely
seeing what she wants to see (like the Wizard of Oz as a lesbian coming
of age story for Dorthy)
Anindita Basu
-What is the connection between grown women and boys? Could girls be cast
as Peter or isn't that a transparent enough cross-over?
Adam Smith
-The author mentions how no one criticizes Peter Pan as a drag show or
the wolf dressed as Grandma as being part of a gay/lesbian agenda. Does
the child space allow for more flexibility in sexuality? If so how does
this compare to the film we saw about Ludwick?
Melanie Wong
-This piece is great. Garber analyzes Peter Pan bringing up very interesting
points. I never thought of Peter as Wendy's ego-ideal or why Peter Pan
played by a woman will never grow up to be a man.
Maria Tatar, "'Violent Delights' in Children's
Literature"
Walter Dan Stiehl
-Why does one fear the nature of having these "violent delights" in children's
literature? If we presume that childhood is by nature an period of joy,
then these instances of violence cannot be comprehended in an adult way
to reveal their sheer horror. From a neurological point of view, there
simply are not enough neuron links made for the child to fully come to
understand the true horror of the story.
Joseph Kaye
-It strikes me that Tatar (in addition to appearing to misunderstand the
distinction between violence and conflict) fails to place the role of
violence in children's literature in the context of violence in adult
literature. This effect is not helped by, as Erica Rand observed, the
lack of distinction of the multiple meanings of the word 'violence'.
Jeannie R. Ben-Hain
-In the article, someone is quoted as saying that a boring tale is one
where children "can be smugly confident that the good will always be rewarded
and the bad always punished". Doesnt this usually happen in children's
literature, boring or not?
-How do the violent images in literature that come with a moral attached
to the violence relate to violence in TV, movies, and video games that
sometimes have violence solely for the sake of violence.
Max Bajracharya
-Is, perhaps, laughter a mechanism of children for dealing with a situation
they might find uncomfortable? While some violence, like Bugs Bunny, is
simply entertainment, some moral tales, like the characters from Charlie
and Chocolate Factory, seem more funny because they are awkward situations
that a child might picture him/herself in.
Mike Ananny
-The author says we should investigate further what violence means to
children but this seems does not seem to be addressing the core question:
if he is truly "elevating" children to an adult-like interaction with
violence then perhaps we should be looking more carefully at what violence
means in an adult context and then try to figure out what it means to
children longing to enter the adult secret world? In what sense is a child's
perception of violence different from an adults? The pedagogical argument
was dismissed so it seems more productive to look at the function of violent
behaviour in adult society and try to understand that effect in a children's
context.
David Spitz
-How might we compare the violent delights in children's literature to
the sensational violence in didactic texts intended for adults (temperance
stories, tales of urban violence and decay in the 19th century; perhaps
also films like Basketball Diaries in the 20th)? Is there really a fundamental
difference between children's and adults' violent delight?
Girim Sung
-What interested me about this was that there seems to be more freedom
in children's literature than in children's television. Our society seems
to condone written violent images, yet strongly object to visual violent
images. I remembered in my childhood that I was allowed to read any book
I wanted but was not able to watch even sitcoms that would show insubordinate
behavior to a parent. Is this because we are a more visually oriented
society what accounts for this contradictory treatment of different media?
Christian Baekkelund
-I loved the quote by Perri Klass on Disney films: "Do we really want
to protect our children from being saddened or scared or even upset by
movies -- or by books? Do we want to eliminate surprise, reversal, tragedy,
conflict and leave children with stories in which they can be smugly confident
that the good will always be rewarded and the bad will always be punished?"
I couldn't agree with this questioning more!...Do any others notably feel
similarly? Are there any common movements or similar with regard to such?
What else has been written and said with this concept of not watering
down and softening media for the young?
-The article also states that when children wrote their own fairy tales
they were far more tame than traditional ones...but why is this? Have
any theories been proposed?
Jennifer Chung
-The described 19th century "this kid played with fire AND BURNED IN HELL!!!"
stories expect to get their points across to their young readers -- imagine
you are this kid; if you play with fire, you'll end up in pain. Do kids
have the sophistication to be able to project themselves onto a child
in a more subtle story? (Random aside: I remember Bugs Bunny doing home
safety commercials wherein he warned that you should make sure that "all
pot handles are turned in" in the kitchen, so younglings don't run up
and grab the pot, tipping several quarts of boiling water onto their tender
little heads.)
Raffi Krikorian
-Not touching the subject of using violence to frame the actions and behaviors
of children, the beginning of the paper talks about how when asked to
write a fairy tale, children find it excruciatingly difficult to write
one that does not involve killing a monster in order to save the princess.
does it not only seem, therefore, that using violence as a way to scare
children into behaving properly (such as all the fairy tales where the
evil children get punished) is also causing children to think that violence
is an acceptable means to an end?
Char DeCroos
-It seems that adults assemble fairy tales to be of some instructive use
to children, by including screw ups and subsequent punishments. Do children
ever extract such instructive use out of fairy tales, or do they merely
transform the media in their mind to meet thier own ends.
Anindita Basu
-What about the Disneyification of fairy tales? How does Disney cauterize
fairy tales and what effect does that kind of commercialization have on
children's lit and "violent delights?"
-How does violence in other children's media, such as cartoons, relate?
In those instances they don't seem as moral, so why do adults put them
in and what effects does this form of violence have?
Adam Smith
-Is the fascination with violence or punishment? Child face the pressure
of behaving properly or face the consequences. The violence in children's
literature seem to stems more from fantasizing about these consequences
than violence for violence sake.
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