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"Boy Culture" by E. Anthony Rotundo
Walter Dan Stiehl
-It is interesting to see how this "primal" need of Boys to use violence
as a part of love seems to be a constant. To what degree do you think
this Boy Culture is prevalent today in the gangs of the inner cities and
in the popularity of such films as "Fight Club"?
Max Bajracharya
-The playing described (as boy culture) is very reminiscent of something
that might be useful in society; it is like training for adulthood (hunting,
war, etc). But, of course, if it was actually training, it wouldn't be
playing. On the other hand, as times change, so do the games...games have
evolved from hunting and trapping to settlers and natives to war with
guns to war with planes and tanks. Can this be attributed solely to the
child's emulation of society? And if it is, do older games become forgotten
as times change drastically?
Shaida Boroumand
-Why can it be taken for granted that boys inevitably go through a period
of rebellion against their fathers? Is "boy culture" exclusively a middle
class phenomenon (I can ask the same about the doll culture discussed
in the next essay)? How has boy culture adapted to the present? Is there
a culture where boys and girls culture aren't distinct?
Adrienne DeWolfe
-Does or doesn't much of this "boy culture" still exist today? It is interesting
that boy culture seems to have developed in a large part in reaction to
the maternal, domestic world they inhabited until age 6. If the roles
were reversed (girls were mostly raised by fathers and uncles until 6
and dressed like them and then given autonomy and outdoor freedoms) would
their play be characterized similarly to boy play? In other words, how
much of the boy play is connected to gender and how much is connected
to simply unfettering the curious, exploring, young mind and body of a
child?
David Mellis
-What is boy culture like today? I feel like the culture of exploration,
competition and sport has been replaced, or absorbed by the culture of
school. Friendships and activity seem to occur much more on a school level.
Do we still have a boy culture separate from school, and is it as powerful?
David Spitz
-What is unique about Rotundo's account of nineteenth century 'boy culture'
and what is universal? Can there be discussion of boyhood during the nineteenth
century without mention of race? Toni Morrison has argued that, no, there
can be no Huck without Jim. Why might this be? (One of her arguments is
that cultural violence against African-Americans begot the physical violence
of boys' play. Do we agree?)
Jeannie R. Ben-Hain
-Rotundo says that one of the uses of boys having two spheres is to have
a dialogue between the actions contained in each one. How would girls
obtain his same type of debate since they seem to only have one sphere,
the domestic one?
-He also says that friendships were not based on common likes and more
on "accidental association", and thus less enduring than familial ties.
Couldn't the same be said for families? I know Ive thought that there
was no way I would associate myself with my brothers aside from the fact
that I was related to them.
-Also, its interesting that the worst fates a boy can endure in the boy
world (being called a crybaby or mama's boy) were things clearly associated
with the maternal/domestic spehere. Additionally, one of the greatest
values, loyalty to ones peers, could be nulled by a mother's guilting
her son into not fighting.
Carlos Cantu
-Rotundo describes three vital elements to boy culture "rivalry, division,
and conflict." If we did away with "boy culture" would that mean the end
of international conflicts, gangs, NFL, etc? Aren't those three elements
hard wired into our brains?
-He concludes that "boy culture" offered a space devoid of the duties
and restrictions of adults society. But couldn't you argue that "boy culture"
is not really free of adult restrictions at all? I mean, it seems as though
most aspects of boy's culture result directly from their parents beliefs
and bias (gender, race, class, [insert stereotype] ).
Girim Sung
-Rotundo says, "As they broke away from the constant restriction of home,
boys also shed forever the gowns and petticoats of the younger days. .
.with great clarity a boy saw that female meant fettered and male meant
free." I was really intrigued how clothing even could affect the social
development of a boy. He goes onto say that "liberty in trousers" allows
boys to roam and engage in more physical activities. Is Rotundo implying
that liberty allows boys to be more physically violent (before the boy
wore trousers, he wore gowns and was encouraged to be in the restricted
"feminine" sphere)? If this is so, and with the slow liberation of females,
should we expect more female violence?
Christian Baekkelund
-Rotundo talks about certain boy pastimes of "hostile combat". It's interesting
to note the "casual violence" with which these youths exchanged, but how
was it seen by their elders? I'm guessing that for the most part it was
seen as part of a "boys will be boys" cliche' of adolescence and growing
up. But why now, all of the sudden, are parents so troubled over their
sons playing Quake against each other? Couldn't this just be seen as a
90s version of the "casual violence" of greetings and play that boys have
exhibited throughout time? (In fact, I would argue that playing Quake
is actually less violent than rock-throwing or wrestling. Also, it is
worth noting that Rotundo does in fact talk about such activities as he
terms games of "skill and...excercise and competition".
-As Rotundo points out, it appears to be common that boys will play-act
their fathers roles -- especially that of his occupation. In the last
couple decades, as many men's roles have become more complicated and frequently
intangible (no longer we have the classic "firefighter", "farmer", or
"police officer"...now we have "computer programmer", "corporate developer",
and "policy analysts"), how have boys (and girls) adapted to still play-mimick
their fathers occupation?
Mike Ananny
-Rotundo's essay seems to be a cliched description of boyhood filled with
loosely structured reminiscences instead of reasoned arguments. He argues
that love and understanding were not present in a boy's world, but instead
conflict and self-assertion were primary and that boys' friendships were
superficial and sudden. He then goes on to use this assumption and a single
case as the support for his future argument that more lasting bonds were
between brothers and cousins. This view seems ridiculously simplistic
and founded on no empirical or theoretical explorations of boys' culture.
Is Rotundo really describing what he thinks inter-boy relationships are
or what he believes society wants boys to be?
Alexandra Andersson
-I find it interesting that the qualities that were supposedly valued
by boys, and that were, according to the author, established by the boys
themself rather than being laid down by their parents are the ones associated
with masculinity. This doesn't seem to be right, and I am wondering if
it would not be more likely that these ideas are handed down by fathers
than independently discovered by each generation of boys.
Brandy Evans
-How has this "boy culture" changed over the course of the 20th century?
Is it still a prominent part of growing up for boys? Is there any female
counterpart, and if so, when did it develop?
Hilarie Claire Tomasiewicz
-"Finally, at about age 6, Morthern boys cut loose from these social and
physical restraints." (339) Why at 6? Rotundo doesn't elaborate. What
factors marked this transition from the "gentle domesticity of the woman's
world?"
Raffi Krikorian
-Has the modern day culture affected a change in when the boy's culture
ends? in today's culture, college or university years seem to be an interesting
merge of the boy culture and the adult culture (or at least at MIT). here,
many male friendships encourage physical activities (rollerhockey, soccer,
dultimateultiamte frisbee), but at the same time all students deal with
incredible amounts of respnosiblity and stress. a lost of students even
experience the feelings of nostalgia as they address younger siblings
to have more fun at home before progressing into their college and "adult"
years.
Char DeCroos
-Rotundo writes a great article of the draws of boy culture to independence,
the outdoors, competition, and beatng on each other. For a typical American
boy, is the amount of time spent in this almost savage ideal dwindling?
Increasingly it seems boys are pushed into organized activities at earlier
ages (youth sports, youth music, etc) and spend much less time just playing.
Anindita Basu
-Why are boys' games more aggressive while girls generally play cooperatively?
Are boys more aggressive because they're trying to separate themselves
from the women's sphere and their fathers?
-Why are boys cruel to each other in their friendships and play?-A lot
of the essay deals with boys' role-playing. What about doll-playing? Boys
have always had toy soldiers, &c. When did boys stop playing with dolls
and why?
-Since girls were part of the domestic sphere, who did they become friends
with and how were their friendships formed?
-What has changed since 19th century boy culture and what has remained
the same?
Adam Smith
-First, what claims about Boy Culture is Rotundo making? Is this a broad
survey leading up to a more formal argument? and, does the late 20th century
man outgrow boy culture? or does it just change into something else?
Jennifer Chung
-When did the boyscouts arise, why was it created, and how did it take
advantage of the natural aggression/loyalty/etc. of boys?
Melanie Wong
-This essay continually asserts the physical play of boys. Don't male
children ever play "mentally"? Is there not some competition of the wits?
Miriam Formanek-Brunnell, "The Politics of Dollhood
in Nineteenth-Century America"
Stephanie K. Dalquist
-Here, dolls seem to have had a change in role. They "served as training
in everything but emotional development and expression." What caused the
change then that allows girls of recent ages to treat their dolls maternally,
expressing love and fondness as if for a real child?
Walter Dan Stiehl
-It would be interesting to see what the reaction to a Barbie Funeral
set would be? Would little girls have this play pattern and hold a funeral
for Skipper?
Max Bajracharya
-Dolls seem to represent the culture of the time (Barbie evolves along
with society) and children can project themselves onto the doll; how does
this affect a child's view of the world? Is the experimentation with the
doll as a thought exercise in society essential to a child's growth?
Shaida Boroumand
-How do the attitudes toward social education change so greatly in such
short periods of time? This paper describes girls' actual interaction
with their dolls in a way that reminds me of the "queering" of doll play
discussed by Erica Rand. However, the author claims that this kind of
play reflects a rebellion against patriarchy rather than agaisnt prescribed
gender/sex roles. Is this a function of the contemporary social values,
or can these differences be attributed to a real change in the meaning
of girls' play?
Adrienne DeWolfe
-On pg. 373 the author briefly mentions boys were among doll lovers and
played with them in socially prescribed ways. How prevalent was this?
Where were they getting their dolls from; did they borrow them from sisters
or were they given dolls just as girls were and if so for what purpose?
David Mellis
-What was the role of the doll in working class households? Brunell refers
to middle class houses a lot, but doesn't mention poorer families much.
Did they have dolls? Were they still used as a way to teach girls skills
like sewing? And when dolls became more fashion oriented in middle class
households, did they undergo the same change in poorer ones?
David Spitz
-Formanek-Brunell, like Erica Rand, wants to distinguish between the meanings
prescribed by the toy business, the role parents intend for the doll and
what happens during the actual moment of consumption, which belongs to
the child. My lingering question for both Rand and Brunell is one of degree.
To what degree does the child's own ascribed meanings trump all other
meanings? My impression is that both Rand and Brunell want to emphasize
consumption, but are hesitant to submit all agency to the child. Are they
underestimating the child, or are children influenced, at least to some
degree, by the objects they are given?
Jeannie R. Ben-Hain
-One word that gets thrown around a lot in this essay is "useful". Dolls
were primarily used to teach a girl useful things early on. In Rotundo's
essay, boys strived for independence, but girls here strive for usefulness.
How much does this apply now? Do dolls like Barbie go beyond the useful
qualities associated with early dolls? Do they teach girls independence
so they can gain "boy" qualities?
Carlos Cantu
-As she talks about the rise of doll presence, if you will, with the general
societal shift from production to consumption, I'm reminded of what Zelizer
wrote with regards to child labor. I just want to know, who benefits from
having little doll wielding "material girls" who are encouraged to play
with china and bisque dolls in ways "that increasingly aped the conspicuous
display of consumer goods and social status"(pg. 376)? Certainly not parents.
Girim Sung
-I was really surprised that white children preferred black dolls. Brunell
suggested that this was because "African-American women played an increasingly
significant role in the rearing of middle-class children." So according
to Brunell's reasoning, minority children should want to play with minority
dolls since they were raised by their own parents. But in our discussion
some days ago, someone said that minority children prefer to play with
white dolls. Could this suggest that white children see their dolls as
playmates while minority children use their dolls for playing out their
"ideal" fantasies?
Christian Baekkelund
-At the beginning of this paper, some references were made to other languages/cultures
and gender determination. Have any studies been conducted such as this
with hard results for any other languages/cultures, and what have those
results been like?
Mike Ananny
-How did women's changing role in the home and outside the home affect
their relationships with their daughters' toys and play development? Were
women trying to prepare their children for the increased financial and
social responsibility they seem to have experienced in 19th century America?
Is this why they were trying to influence their daughters' play with "useful"
toys?
Alexandra Andersson
-What made the mothers of one generation think that they could get their
daughters to conform to the ideals of doll play when they themself had
rejected similar ideals in their own childhood?
Brandy Evans
-When did a stigma become attached to playing with dolls for boys?
-At one point she says that someone preferred paper dolls (and a few other
toys) to her dolls - should paper dolls be considered another toy genre
or a subgenre of dolls, and why?
Hilarie Claire Tomasiewicz
-"Gift-giving could solace an alienated father and reinforce his belief
that he was fufilling his role as provider." How could an adult possibly
think that a doll could function as a suitable stand-in/companion for
a MIA dad? Don't dolls usually represent characters of the child's imagination?
Its a little weird thinking about my old dolls as anything but neutral
playmates with no explicit function.
Raffi Krikorian
-Has modern 20th century american culture changed the politics of dollhood
that much? it seems that fathers still do not spend much time with their
daughters, and try to rectify this by buying their daughters new dolls
and presents. also -- male children seem to have a fascination with "play"
dolls also -- GIJoe dolls and transformers; any doll that can be used
during a physical or violent activity.
Char DeCroos
-Formanek-Brunell States that girls used doll fiction as a way of playing
to grasp with serious needs -- development skills and morals and preparation
for motherhood in particular. Does doll play have the same function currently?
How did one teach morality with a doll anyway?
Anindita Basu
-Who did girls play with?
-What kinds of toys did boys play with? What kinds of toys were girls
given besides dolls? Did they have any toys in common?
-Formanek-Brunell mentions that boys had dolls sometimes which they saw
more as friends or buddies (My Buddy doll?). Did girls' dolls serve as
peers as well?
-A lot of the violence directed towards Barbie no longer seems particular
to the Barbie doll, it seems that girls have always acted out on their
dolls and cut them up and decapitated them. While Barbie evokes particularly
strong emotions, they seem completely tied into the history of doll play.
Adam Smith
-The author suggests, "Girls were urged towards usefulness in their play."
Was the play for the 1800s girl seen as training and to what extent? How
about boys?
Jennifer Chung
-Doll funerals -- well, it feels morbid from today's standpoint. How did
something like that develop the stigma we consider it to have today? (reminds
me of 'funeral dance of a marionette'..)
Melanie Wong
-Is the movement of play from real life applications (such as play work,
play clean, etc) a good thing? Or do you think that we haven't really
moved away from "useful" play, that it's just been sugar coated with commerialism?
(I mean we still have the E-Z bake oven...)
Justine Cassell, "Calling it the Way You See it: French
Children's Labels and Schemas for Gender Information"
Stephanie K. Dalquist
-Has the study about occupations/feminisation of nouns been replicated
in other culutres? In the US, for example, it is now common to read "policewoman"
and other nouns like that, but some jobs still remain without gender mark
("firefighter").
Walter Dan Stiehl
-I can understand the difficulty in French in which both the article changes
as well as the word for the French child. What was the result, if there
have been, of a very similar test in English? I know the article mentions
an English study.
Max Bajracharya
-Is the association of gender to a concept an association to the word
as a symbol (signifier) or the actual concept/profession (signified)?
Humans as animals must have some instinctual/natural notion of gender,
but is this necessarily (strongly) represented in language? Or if it isn't,
how does a society change these notions?
Shaida Boroumand
-Do children speaking gendered languages actually have more gender stereotypes
than children speaking non-gendered languages, or is it more related to
the dominant stereotypes in the greater culture? For instance, American
children frequently assume nurses are female and doctors are male, but
English doesn't use gendered articles. I also thought the example of transforming
the word "model" (un mannequin --> une mannequaine) was very interesting
in terms of my own stereotypes. When I learned French, I thought it strange
that the word for model was masculine, because I associated the profession
with women.
Adrienne DeWolfe
-What can this article tell us about the use of gender stereotyping in
educational applications involving text and memory? In other words, should
the publishers of reading anthologies be using non stereotypical gender
roles in text to increase memory and even interest?
David Mellis
-What about this study carries over to English where we don't have gendered
words, but still have stereotypes regarding professions? What does it
tell us about how children here view gender roles?
Carlos Cantu
-So if we know that highly stereotyping children change the content or
linguistic form of information to go along with their expectations, what
can we do with that knowledge?
Girim Sung
-Cassell says, "Thus, when children were asked about the profession represented,
those who heard a story about a male nurse often remembered a female nurse
or (more commonly) a male doctor." So these children often remembered
the gender (male) first and then adjusted the profession according to
common stereotypes. Is this need to classify things into gender innate
or a cultural construct? And if children can differentiate things and
other people by gender markers-why can children like Ludo not know about
what gender they themselves are?
Christian Baekkelund
-At the beginning of this paper, some references were made to other languages/cultures
and gender determination. Have any studies been conducted such as this
with hard results for any other languages/cultures, and what have those
results been like?
Mike Ananny
-What was the SES of the students in the study? Was there any correlation
between parents' education, SES and children's attitudes towards linguistic
encoding of gendering and professions?
Alexandra Andersson
-Is there male nurses and female doctors in France? To what extent does
the children's gender stereotyping reflect the actual conditions in the
society they live in?
Brandy Evans
-Could a similar experiment be done on English-speaking children, using
the pronoun instead of a gender-marked profession title? (ie, A story
about a doctor in which it is referred to as "she" vs "he", one about
a nurse, etc) Would it make a difference whether the profession was one
that can mark gender but is purposely made neutral (ie, A story about
a mailperson - would the forced neutrality cause the child to notice when
the mailperson is referred to as a she more than they would a doctor referred
to as a she?)?
Raffi Krikorian
-I guess i'm pretty confused by this paper, and what it was attempting
to prove. i understand the general premise that more highly stereotyping
children seem less able to remember information which is stereotypically
inconsistant, but i'm not sure about the intersection of this information
with the french language. trying to draw information frmo the paper, it
seems as though french children (due to their understanding of gender
through the language) will not be able to remember information if it is
counter-schematic; english speaking children will not have htis problem
as the language does not explicitly associate gender. taking these facts
to be true, does this mean that french children grow up with certain prejudices
about which gender can succeed in a certain profession? has this actually
turne dout to be true in french society?
Char DeCroos
-Justine's article reminded me of 1984, where the big bad evil government
was restructuring the english language into New Speak, so that the general
populace would have no clue about freedom etc. as they would have no word
for it. While French children's gender labels likely teach them about
gender constancy, do these gender labels for professosion actually affect
their self-perception of being able to hold a job held constant for the
other gender? What about for American children.
Anindita Basu
-It's really interesting that children oftentimes remembered a male doctor
for a male nurse instead of a female nurse. Did this happen with other
occupations as well? Were occupations changed to fit gender stereotypes
more than the gendering of the words?
Jennifer Chung
-Have similar studies been done for other gender-cognizant languages (e.g.,
Spanish); if so, what manner of results were there, and how much of that
is attributable to cultural stereotypes?
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